Heinlein again 

Heinlein was surprisingly racist for someone who opposed racism and surprisingly creepy for someone who respected women’s agency and believed strongly in consent. Medlesohn wants to do the “product of his time” thing but I think it’s more useful to look at him as a prototypical facts-and-logic bro, shaped by his time studying engineering at a naval academy. He works on rules and fucks up because he’s not capable of understanding others’ subjectivity.

Heinlein again 

@ghost_bird I'm trying to remember, but cannot think of a single case from Heinlein's books (at least ones I have read) where a woman would *not* consent.
Which makes one doubt what did Heinlein believe in, actual consent, or some perfunctory concept?

Heinlein again 

@IngaLovinde Mendlesohn’s argument is (roughly) that his idea of sexual integrity involves absence of jealousy and an instance on consent, but that he’s more interested in giving examples than showing the bad alternatives. And his women are very often the ones who do the choosing and make decisions in general... but I think the inability to think beyond his own experience means it all ends up as male fantasy anyway.

Heinlein again 

@ghost_bird yes... "consent is important so all women (who are totally strong and make decisions) offer themselves to me, The Male; and even those who don't, enthusiastically consent when I ask them to"

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Heinlein again 

@IngaLovinde A fair amount of that, yes. But he also does a lot of group marriages that aren’t just harem fantasies and stuff that works more like what we’d now call polyamory.

Heinlein again 

@ghost_bird and that probably influenced my affinity to polyamory :)

Heinlein again 

@IngaLovinde I think I said to someone else on here: what I’d really like is biographies of the significant women in his life. I think they’d all be more interesting than he was.

Heinlein again 

@ghost_bird And another question to wonder: how many women of that time wrote speculative fiction among the same lines and had progressive but unproblematic views on polyamory, gender non-conformity, sexual orientation etc, yet remained totally unnoticed by a larger culture because they were women and SF/F field was so sexist back then?

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